| Financial Resources - SSAT decision set aside | ||
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Posted 02 February, 2010, 12:30 AM
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Percolo Alio
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I found Ladd & Child Support Registrar & Anor (SSAT Appeal) [2010] FMCAfam 23 (18 January 2010) quite interesting. Here's a link Ladd & Child Support Registrar & Anor (SSAT Appeal) [2010] FMCAfam 23 (18 January 2010)
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Posted 02 February, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Silver Member
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Mike - With findings like that how can the C$A and SSAT continue to do what we all know they shouldn't be doing? There's no argument here about what the grounds for appeal are and the error in a point of law is. |
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Posted 02 February, 2010, 02:06 PM
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Percolo Alio
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Fairgo, basically that is what has been put forward as the only fair way forward; i.e. to have set decisions made by matter experts, such as the ATO, in regards to what can and can't be considered and that the CSA simply follow procedures and basically rubber stamp COA's. Without doubt that would save the tax payers a great deal of money and also save many children unnecessary suffering. |
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Posted 06 February, 2010, 06:35 PM
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Percolo Alio
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There is a sense on reading this case that there is an inadequate training program in CSA entity and that there is no transmission of case law through their system. For a department to repeat the same errors and not remedy their faults is concerning. A focused informing MHRs of these concerns is possibly the path to justice. Pressure from the top may be required.
What is done for you, let it be done, what you must do, be sure you do it, as the wise person does today that what the fool will do in three days - Buddha
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Posted 07 February, 2010, 05:57 AM
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Percolo Alio
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Verdad, yes it does appear that the knowledge and understanding of the legislation and how it should actually be applied, of far too many in the CSA is seriously lacking. This case also shows that it goes beyond the CSA and into SSAT, which due to it's role, is a far more serious issue in regard to the hierarchy. I believe that it also highlights an attitude that ones so often hears about many in the CSA, basically that there is no concern for the very object of the legislation (Section 4 of the Child Support Assessment Act), and that the paying parent is just seen as the object from which to squeeze more and more money. This irrespective of that parent being a person with a need and duty to support themselves and often others, irrespective of the harm that knowingly taking more than a person has will very likely do and completely without consideration for the harm that will do to the child or children, friends and other family members. | |
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Posted 07 February, 2010, 09:24 AM
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Silver Member
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Concerning the lack of knowledge on the CSA employees part, let me quote what the CSA apparently replied to the Ombudsman in regards to a complaint from us:"..CSA advised (the Ombudsman) that the information contained within the Guide was in itself not legally enforcable. Instead it should be read as a guide to assist in the interpretation and application of legislative provisions". Consequently our complaint of CSA not following procedure was dismissed because the Guide is not legal anyway. What the???? |
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Posted 07 February, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Percolo Alio
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Babushka, I believe that the guide is actually irrelevant and is really a red herring as far as what the CSA actually do. The CSA follow PI's, procedural instructions, however those as well are not the legislation itself. I believe that what you should have said to the Obudsman, is that the actions taken were outside of the legislation. There again perhaps the Ombudsman fudging a complaint in this way is also itself outside of the legislation. To be honest isn't it basically the same, virtually all, if not all, of government hides behind red tape and obfuscation. |
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Posted 07 February, 2010, 07:39 PM
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Silver Member
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Mike, Perhaps there needs to be more exposure to how C$A operate. We have seen the pages of the collection handbook where they advise using the phone is the best way to extract information quickly from the payer before they have had the chance to think about what is really being asked of them. If we could get more of these procedural instructions we could show just how far they are operating outside the legislation. I've got a SSAT hearing coming up soon and it will be interesting to see how far they go to 'stretch' my income. Verdad is spot on - The above case may come in handy. Maybe I should email it to my case officer. Babushka - the only way to get to the truth of the matter is to utilise the appeals process to the fullest. |
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Posted 07 February, 2010, 09:30 PM
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Silver Member
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MikeT Fairgo does raise some good issues here. Is the Collection Handbook a publicly accessible document? I have seen extracts but not the full version. Fairgo - have you read all the latest judgments which are relevant to departure orders/COA and applied the relevant ones to your own matter? LP Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on the site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in the public areas. For total privacy join SRL-R at www.srl-resources.org for in-depth, reliable and confidential family law support. 66 family law forums. All members are verified. No search engines, no public forums, no visitors, no guests, no ex's.
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Posted 08 February, 2010, 08:12 AM
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Percolo Alio
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I don't believe that the Collections Handbook is made available to the public. The CSA publication number for the Collections Handbook is CSA4173.10.08. Perhaps a letter or email requesting it could be fruitful. As to there being more exposure I agree that there should be a grater deal of transparency, including freely making available such publications as the Collections Handbook and especially the Procedural Instructions, which actually I believe brings about a full circle as I understand that the Procedural instructions frequently refer to the guide, for policies and explanations. However there is an element at the individual level that is quite appalling and not documented, personal short-cuts is what I'll call them, although as explained, perhaps they should have a more encompassing term. One such example is the procedural requirement to attempt to contact a customer 3 times, after which is this fails actions may be taken (such as the two Joe's "chase them to the grave"). I understand that it is not an uncommon act for those three attempts to be made to the same number and within as few minutes as attempts made. This allows the 3 contact attempts box to be completed, it allows the "In Tray" to be progressed, it allows the worker to improve their stats, it may then allow the worker to get faster promotion, it allows the workers leader to have better stats, it simplifies their job, it increases their chance for promotion, it affords the leader's leader like benefits and so on until we get to it allowing the CSA(CSP) to look as if they are doing their job better to those who they report to, FAHCSIA(DHS) and Ministers etc. As for the person not contacted, well action is taken often without the person being afforded what they should be and it's another nail in the coffin. |
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Posted 08 February, 2010, 01:18 PM
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Bronze Member
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I am about to order most of the items in 'Section 9 Statement' under FOI which is Child Support Procedural Instructions, Other Procedural Documents, and COA-SCO Procedures, to help us better understand CSA's rationale. Am I wasting my time? Incidently, and you may already know this but in "COA-SCO Procedures" is an entry titled "Inflation Factors & Adjustment - Tables on how to inflate incomes". Hmmmm. |
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Posted 08 February, 2010, 09:11 PM
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Platinium Member
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No - you are not wasting your time. I requested every document listed under the CSA with a FOI request. I received the documents. They make interesting reading.
Executive Member of SRL-Resources, the Family Law People on the site (Look for the Avatars). Be mindful what you post in the public areas. For total privacy join SRL-R at www.srl-resources.org for in-depth, reliable and confidential family law support. 66 family law forums. All members are verified. No search engines, no public forums, no visitors, no guests, no ex's.
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Posted 08 February, 2010, 10:52 PM
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Silver Member
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The judgement above, although the nature of the case is very different to mine, gives me enough of what I need to appeal my SSAT decision before it has been made. Their latest directions require me to make a full financial disclosure whilst my ex will be only questioned by the SSAT at their discretion about her financial circumstance, so they have already blown 4d as below for starters. The main issue is s117 (1)(b)(ii) as below: Matters to consider for purposes of subparagraph (1)(b)(ii) 4) In determining whether it would be just and equitable as regards the child, the carer entitled to child support and the liable parent to make a particular order under this Division, the court must have regard to: (a) the nature of the duty of a parent to maintain a child (as stated in section 3); and (b) the proper needs of the child; and © the income, earning capacity, property and financial resources of the child; and (d) the income, property and financial resources of each parent who is a party to the proceeding; and (da) the earning capacity of each parent who is a party to the proceeding; and (e) the commitments of each parent who is a party to the proceeding that are necessary to enable the parent to support: (i) himself or herself; or (ii) any other child or another person that the person has a duty to maintain; and (f) the direct and indirect costs incurred by the carer entitled to child support in providing care for the child; and (g) any hardship that would be caused: (i) to: (A) the child; or (B) the carer entitled to child support; by the making of, or the refusal to make, the order; and (ii) to: (A) the liable parent; or (B) any other child or another person that the liable parent has a duty to support; by the making of, or the refusal to make, the order; and (iii) to any resident child of the parent (see subsection (10)) by the making of, or the refusal to make, the order. |
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Posted 09 February, 2010, 12:02 AM
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Percolo Alio
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I have contacted the department and you received a copy mail. I will advise. I thought this was raised at the NSW State Stakeholder meetings last year and a response made alongside the issue of time to take notes. Does it need to be raised as an emerging issue and is this widespread? Was my post helpful? If not, please let us know how we can do better If so, please let others know about the FamilyLawWebGuide whenever you see the opportunity |
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Posted 09 February, 2010, 11:02 AM
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Percolo Alio
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Secretary_SPCA I believe the quick call routine is a relatively common practice however it'd be hard to prove and that we'd get the denial, like we did with the screen notes, even though within days feedback was provided that the denial from senior management was not the case of what was happening. Perhaps there should be a push for the implementation of a process that enforces the "minimum of three attempts at different times and on different days" and then the sending of the "contact CSA letter". I have little doubt that this could be enforced via Cuba with the worker going into the "intray" and logging the attempt to make the call and barring subsequent calls until the next day. On the third attempt the letter could then be sent and no further action taken in regards to enforcement until say 28 working days have expired. I'll put together an emerging issue. |
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Posted 11 February, 2010, 06:04 PM
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Percolo Alio
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In regard to the three rings I actually have proof that this happened, although this is a bit dated. It goes back to late March 2005. They are the screen notes that I requested and it's in regard to EWA (Employee Withholding Action), they sent the letter. This is the relevant extract from the screen notes :-
I'd forgotten about that call, thanks to Silas Stingy for bringing it to my attention, as he's the one who had me looking through my CS stuff. I didn't know about the handbook at the time. I believe I was complaining about the a) the lie that 3 attempts had been made and b) that they had not been recorded as I believe is also a requirement. I wonder how many others have an officer conveniently go on extended leave, when the fan is hit? |
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Posted 11 February, 2010, 11:57 PM
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Silver Member
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Yep - I have had that happen - the case officer who said he would call me back never did and then apparently went on leave. That was the final straw for me and then went write only with them. I was pretty 'green' back in those days and thought they were quite reasonable. | |